simple machines forum

Posts to this board do not count towards your forum post totals. So if you only post in this board you will appear to have 0 posts. It's no big deal.

Topics/threads in here are ephemeral. That's why posts don't count towards totals. This means the threads are subject to removal by regular pruning. How regular? Maybe never. We'll see.

Does your post belong on this board? If it isn't about the development of Sword of Moonlight probably. But don't worry about it. Your topic will get moved to the appropriate board.

Also don't worry too much about what you post in here. But do keep it at least tenuously related to Sword of Moonlight. Anything not related to SOM in these boards, on this site that is, is subject to deletion. In fact it should be promptly deleted.

What is related to SOM? Well lots. Anything about art and games in the abstract is related to SOM, but not all kinds of games, and probably not all kinds of art. A lot of things aren't though.

If you are just posting to be social you are probably in the wrong forum. This is not a social forum. You are not here to make friends, or find your soul-mate, or relate your daily activities and personal trials and tribulations. If you want to be private friends or colleagues with someone, shoot them a Private Message. In fact, that's the only thing you should use PMs for. Don't try to maintain a private relationship via the PM system. Trade personal contact information and take it offsite.

Yes it's the Nonsense forum, but your nonsense must stay on topic, namely in relation to SOM.

BTW: The only thing you really need to know is if you make custom PRT files, map pieces that is, you can use any name for the files, that is you are not limited to names 0000.prt through 1023.prt, and you are not limited to 1024 pieces per project in that way either, although you are still limited to 1024 per map...

But most importantly the name of the icon file is very important, because the system that makes it possible to setup maps in a sane way without corrupting the MAP files expects the icon name to be a permanent unique ID.

See http://en.swordofmoonlight.org/wiki/SomEx#Breaking_changes for more on this and other major changes.


EDITED: Also I recommend you not mess with the default speed and turning settings in the Sys.dat file. There's almost no legitimate reason to change these for any game. I'd write them down before changing them so you can put them back.

^Oh BTW. I just noticed you explained that the updater problem is in the unzipping/installing step. I will look into that specifically this afternoon I think (so no need to post a screenshot or anything)

Finding a bug is always cause for celebration. Not demoralization.

The installer still gives me grief when It asks me for a file update, mainly with unzipping and replacing SomEX.dll.  I have to replace it manually, so I wonder if there is something running in the background that prevents this?

The only thing that should prevent the update from the get go is if SOM is already running. Or possibly antivirus software. You can use the Task Manager and go to the Processes tab to see if there is anything that looks like SOM in there and kill it. These days a process being stuck in the background like that is very unlikely though. With antivirus software you should just whitelist SOM_EX.exe or just use the default security stuff that comes with Windows.

Also if you go to the Systray/notification area there is an icon for the SOM_EX program that can be used to Exit everything cleanly from the right-click menu. Windows 7 and maybe Vista too hide these icons by default; a real nuisance if you ask me, since its very easy to hide your own icons, but I don't know if I will go to lengths to prevent the hiding or not. If even possible. If so the Start.bat file would do that.

If you can post a screenshot or use Spy++ to capture the text of the error window that will help. I may have to do a full install from scratch myself and get back to you on this. It's possible that the bootstrapping is not cutting it. Also if you cancel any of the first updates or they don't work then that can be a real problem, because the updater itself may need to be updated as a first step.

Strikeout: I see you explained the problem was in the unzipping/installing step.

I've been considering doing a trial install anyway. If you go to csv.swordofmoonlight.net you can find all the latest versions of each DLL file. That should let you get to work at least.

I installed it through the SVN, so I think I was following the necessary steps, I'll have to try again perhaps.

I see you saw my other post,  so:  I want to start a new project, BUT!  whenever I start it, it seems to direct to the original sword of moonlight toolset and data (C:\Sword of Moonlight\)  and not the EX tools and dataset (C:\Sword of Moonlight EX\)

Did you run the Setup.bat and Start.bat files? To use Sword of Moonlight/Ex you need to launch through SOM_EX.exe. I think you must be or you wouldn't have seen the updater. There are two kinds of updates, there is the active SVN update that you do, and the updater (Somversion.dll) that downloads the DLL files when it detects that they are older than the ones listed in the CSV files in the TOOL folder.

So I wonder, should I uninstall Sword of Moonlight and SomEX, and reinstall EX via SVN again?

EDIT:  Uninstalling both and just installing EX seemed to have helped a bit in regards to IMAGES.INI.

The release before last made it easier to start a new project with SOM_MAIN by automatically moving a lot of default configuration files into the new project folder, including IMAGES.INI. That file I don't like that it's in the project's top folder, but it's a throwback to years ago that hasn't been worked on since (edited: there is probably an extension for moving it elsewhere, and for standalone games it goes in an out of the way folder by default)

I'm going to mess around with this more.

The way install works in my imagination is a person comes to the site and reads the pages or finds the README/English.txt file first, and so uses a Subversion client to Checkout everything. Then I assume they will see the Setup.bat file, which should also be part of the documentation, and click on it. I assume people still click on Setup files reflexively but you never know.

Then you would think that the Start.bat file starts things, but it actually sets up the Start menu. Then you use the Swordofmoonlight.net folder in the Start menu to run Sword of Moonlight from there on out. 

Since the release before last the only hitch is you need to add a language pack to the TEXT folder if you don't want Japanese. And you need to do that before you make a new project (assuming you don't do that in Japanese) to get the English default configuration.

Of course there can always be a bug in the mix. I won't find out until I do a fresh install. I may do that today, but it may be Monday before I get to it.

EDIT2:  The Kage issue is fixed now, now I have to deal with the missing files.   Where can you get those files anyways?  I don't remember them in the original files.

It's because they are not in the original files that the message appears. I can't really search for 113.mdl in the site's database because it doesn't exist so the results will show up empty. I doubt it belongs to a PRF file anyway. Most likely it is part of the Sfx.dat file. So this won't likely get fixed until there is an alternative to the Sfx.dat file system (because PRF files need to be used for "magic" like everything else.)

I think I will just add a 0 sized 113.mdl file to the data/sfx/model folder. But I worry that could break the magic spell because I don't know how this works. I would be safer if I knew what used that spell. And that's hard to tell with the sfx system. If it's one of the player character spells it could be easier to figure out. If so it would be one of the image only spells.

In fact I worry that I may have already broken some spells if I tried this before. I know the Haze spell (purple fog) crashes SOM_PRM if you preview it. It's probably something worth investigating (there's always just so many somethings)

And for the question of the moment:  Is there a windowed mode for map testing?

The recommended default configuration files (the same ones that are copied when making a new project) should run games inside a window. When you test a map you just launch the game really. So whatever your project's game settings are is what you'll get.


PS: At some point I do intend to prepare an installer, that will just do the SVN stuff automatically. It won't be the recommended method, but it will be an available option. That will come about sometime between now and Beta, which is just a way to say probably not anytime soon.

I should have took the time to search this section...

I started recently as well, and I ran into a similar issue that SaneGino did.

However, when I started another project, it said that it was missing the IMAGES.INI file.  Now the funny part is that it was directing to the Sword of Moonlight folder, not my Sword of Moonlight EX folder that I made for this project.

I did the alternative path, but I don't think that helped in terms of the IMAGES.INI issue.

How would I go about fixing this?

The information here is outdated. I think you should make a new thread in this board, and explain first if you are migrating an existing project, or beginning a new project. Because that will make a difference.

Either way the easiest approach right now is probably to make sure you are up-to-date and just make a new project, and then copy your existing project over it, and begin working with the new project folder.

Also I encourage you to make a new thread so something can be written there about best practices. The biggest difference between now and the information here, is now we use the project's SOM file for matters such as where to locate files and folders (this is explained in the Getting Started page, but likely not very well. SOM is Alpha right now. So you shouldn't expect setup to be a walk in the park, and shouldn't be afraid to ask for help. But neither should you not try to do as much on your own as possible.)


EDITED: I see you've made a new topic/thread already. Why not just use that one to carry on? I've moved it to this board: http://www.swordofmoonlight.net/bbs2/index.php?topic=177.0

What's in this release is mostly text edits within individual files, which are in turn mirrored in the accompanying language pack.

In addition the SET file system comes into its own. You can see various set files within this (http://svn.swordofmoonlight.net/data/item/prof/) folder.

The names of these files are picked up as individual sets separated by spaces. So you can use those to control what profiles appear or don't appear in SOM_PRM and SOM_MAP on a per project basis by way of the DATASET variable of the project's SOM file (actually each SOM file is itself a project. Technically that is what is meant by the word project. A SOM file. Still everyone on a team can have their own SOM files sharing the same project data spaces.)

Separate from the SOM file, how profiles are presented within SOM_PRM can be controlled with the sort_ extension. It's been around for a few releases, but two new forms have been added to its syntax for this release. These are not yet documented in the preliminary/unofficial wiki documentation. The simple sort_=x form introduces a separator into SOM_PRM's menus. Needless to say it cannot be selected and will not appear unless profiles are sorted between it and the next separator. The second new form omits the = or leaves the right hand side blank. All of the sets on the left hand side will then be appended to any following sort_ directives...

This is illustrated here (http://svn.swordofmoonlight.net/data/my/prof/Ex.ini) and also in English here (http://svn.swordofmoonlight.net/SAMPLE/Example/Example%20Ex.ini) ... note that you may need to refresh those pages.

You can also see all of the sets that are part of this release within those files. With DATASET and sort_ you can combine sets. DATASET is much more flexible. Whereas sort_ only understands all or none matching. However the built in sets included for the most part are simple flat categories. They are very fine grain too, intended to reconstruct the convenience afforded by the From Software naming conventions, so I don't recommend them wholeheartedly for use with DATASET just yet.

At a latter time I intend to add a new quasi-centralized CAT file format for constructing abstract sets and synonym-translations. Simple rules like swords=longswords shortswords or Schwerter=swords. And I also put off setting up sets according to the games the profiles are from. I just lumped everything into the "of From" set, which is the grandfathered-in set for profiles that don't belong to any actual games.

The PRT files are mostly just changed to correct typos and add measurement information (along the height axis.)  Also the names have been changed to add the basement of King's Field's dungeon to each description. Although long term I would prefer to remove all of the duplicates entirely, refactoring them somehow into a "variants" system... mainly because they're too much trouble to manage individually, and they just look like a lot of bloat.


There is only one language pack, English/Neutral+Default.zip, as the link in the blog post says: http://svn.swordofmoonlight.net/text/English.txt (note that TXT files are "README" files. Not language packs)

If you want English you must figure out on your own that you need to set this up for yourself until I can come up with something better. But other than that getting setup with the files here is now easier than it has ever been if you are just needing to start a new project, because somehow the SOM_PRM category system needed to just be there by default. So there is a new system that copies one of the two Ex.ini files linked to above into a new project (as setup by SOM_MAIN. Although SOM_EDIT makes the changes when it encounters a new SOM file for the first time. Which is easy to detect for now, because the tools are made to think that the project directory is > or literally a greater-than sign, and so that becomes the name of the new projects. Of course SOM_EDIT now corrects that.)


Of course you don't actually need English since the last release, since Japanese should work, even if that isn't your computer's legacy region setting. But if you don't setup English before you make your new project, you will be stuck with the Japanese default config file, since it is only copied upon creation. Truthfully you are supposed to customize this for your own uses, but by providing a default configuration, the old Sword of Moonlight 2000 functionality is restored out of the box.



EDITED: There is a slight bug that I realized thanks to this post. I won't patch it alone though. In short sort_ is treated as a blank separator, when it should be treated as clearing the appending function. I already decided on this; implication being that disabling a separator is impossible. In general separators are very useful and should always be used, so that's not a problem really. But I realized that I'd added these functions in the "wrong" order and therefore likely the separator function was getting first dibs. And so that's the bug.

I just came across this link:

Q: Sony owns the Demon’s Souls IP. What are you going to do with it?

A: We never sell our IPs. Well, I should never say never, but it’s not our business. Our business is to grow our IP and we love Demon’s Souls. From Software is a very important business partner, so we’ll see.

Actually, I got there from here (http://www.destructoid.com/demon-s-and-dark-souls-influenced-the-ps4-s-development-266215.phtml) which is interesting too, but not really.

It's kind of weird that after all these years From' is becoming a bit of a darling, even while their games are technically getting worse in terms of outright quality. Or at least, Dark Souls can't hold a candle to King's Field.


Still I wonder what the ramifications could conceivably be down the road if From was to end up a de facto division of a behemoth like Sony.

Armored Core V failed to find a real audience, even after it was given the whole Demon's Souls treatment. I don't know of any other games that From' does really. It's interesting to see though that the mainstream gaming audience is only beginning to figure out the real value of From Software. I've recognized this forever of course...

The same can be said for Atlus. These were the only companies still making (traditional) video games after the mainstreaming of video games. It seems like their sticktoitiveness might finally be paying out dividends.

Unfortunately their product has been so adulterated, while beginning to obtain the recognition that they always deserved, the actual output has had to suffer like everything else.


There were about three titles on the PS3 that I actually played. If you crunch the numbers, and current trends continue, that means the PS4 should having something like 0.1 games that will be worth playing. So it's not even worth browsing through the catalog at this point.

I just wonder what it might mean for Sword of Moonlight at this point if From' merged with Sony. Would Sony throw its weight around. I hope not. But behemoths are known for their senselessness


PS: Doesn't it seem weird that Sony owns From's IP? I'm guessing this is as a good a reason to guess that we won't be seeing a From' kissed King's Field game ever again as any.

Just post anything you think is both wrong and counter-intuitive with contemporary game design.

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I was personally offended by this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnxVOUSzX4A

EDITED: fixed the link; since Extra Credits moved from Penny Arcade, it'd gone dead.

This is emblematic of everything that is wrong with games to me, level design wise.


First. This is fine, if your goal is to make a clockwork game that is thoroughly contrived, like Legend of Zelda. But if your goal is to facilitate an engrossing and compelling experience, no, no, just no.

I love King's Field because it doesn't follow this pattern. The example used in the video is if you climb up a cliff, and don't find a reward waiting for you, then your game just cheated you of something, and you should scorn it.

No. That's just training the player to look in the weirdest places for no reason. And creating a very artificial atmosphere. If you want to climb a mountain, do it for the fun of climbing a mountain.

If the game gives you no reason to climb the mountain, then don't. Why would someone climb a mountain just to perch a treasure for you to find on its summit, and then climb back down?

In King's Field. You may trip over a piece of equipment that will prove  indispensable for the entire game. Or you may struggle for hours against impossible odds, for absolutely nothing.

This is how it should be.

If you don't like that, then go make a Zelda clone, your game will always be relegated to that tightly nit pseudo-puzzle are you serious? shoebox