Sword of Moonlight > Beginner and other Nonsense

Regarding Posting Sensibilities

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Wolf:
This is my last attempt to get you to understand how simple the "common forum etiquette" I'm asking for is and to stop responding so severely.

Apparently the snippet you took issue with is:
"But what you call "moral" is irrelevant; I will be deleting/moving  any of your posts that are excessively off topic or rude to other members, unless Todd asks me to do otherwise. My purpose is not to limit you, just to keep topics functionally focused and the environment pleasant."

The point is not that morals are irrelevant, but that you ALWAYS claim your actions are justified by some moral. In the MANY conversations I've had with you, you have never admitted any of your actions were wrong no matter how obvious it was. You were claiming that you had a moral obligation to argue off-topic in someone else's thread. I evaluated your claim, decided it was wrong, and therefore your ERRONEOUS "moral" was irrelevant. I can't be expected to take the time to convince you (who never admit you are wrong) that you are incorrect before taking action.
 
You said:
"But I just know that I am doing myself, SOM, and everyone who cares about SOM, a disservice to spend time with this forum. Anyway I retired my account and deleted my feeds/bookmarks last night. I just can't have any involvement with an angry site so entwined with something so close to me as Sword of Moonlight."

Seriously!? I ask you not to be rude on the forum and you think that means the forum is so "angry" that you have to disassociate from it? I am one of the most compassionate, moralistic people I know (hence why I am spending my time writing this message) and I have zero desire to be hostile or allow anyone else to be hostile on the forums. Your logic and conclusion here is just plain wrong.

For the fourth time, what I'm expecting is simple:
Don't post EXCESSIVE amounts of off-topic text in a thread.
Don't be rude to others.
If you think these requirements make a site "hostile", you are wrong. I'll ask you directly, come back the SoM.com forums and enjoy sharing your enthusiasm for SoM with others. That is the purpose of a forum and the very reason I think the above two rules are required.

Holey Moley:
First of all this seems like PM material. But I don't have any problem responding to this out in the open if that is what you prefer.


--- Quote from: Wolf on February 08, 2013, 08:32:21 PM ---This is my last attempt to get you to understand how simple the "common forum etiquette" I'm asking for is and to stop responding so severely.
--- End quote ---

Problem with common anything is there is no clearly defined standard and if there was it would be a lot of work to commit such a thing to memory. You have to be compassionate even when conveying simple clearly defined objective rules. Edited: similarly what seems severe to you is fairly reasonable and straightforward to me. Recall I was banned for what was probably years. Never mind that disengaging is usually the appropriate thing to do when you find yourself in an asymmetrical relationship.


--- Quote ---Apparently the snippet you took issue with is:
"But what you call "moral" is irrelevant; I will be deleting/moving  any of your posts that are excessively off topic or rude to other members, unless Todd asks me to do otherwise. My purpose is not to limit you, just to keep topics functionally focused and the environment pleasant."
--- End quote ---

I think I probably took issue with more than that. But the audacity of that statement sure didn't quite sink in until the second time it came to my attention. So yeah I singled it out as exemplar.

My problem isn't the sentiment and in lieu of my history with the forum in question I would not be so taken back by this. My problem is the hostile tone and the mere suggestion that I should be second guessing myself. If you are going to second guess yourself you might as well third guess yourself, fourth guess yourself, ad infinitum. That's placing a heavy burden on anyone. Lastly I take issue with the hypocrisy. You are going to delete/move a post that was a reply in kind to your own post. And I will admit that I doubt its sincerity.

By the good nature logic of this forum where I can hold sway your personal post would've been redacted, and users would be reminded to ignore personalized posts. Because this is a forum about Sword of Moonlight. Not interpersonal animus or rapport.

But that is not the history or practice of the som.com forums. So I replied to your singling me out because it would be rude not to.


--- Quote ---The point is not that morals are irrelevant, but that you ALWAYS claim your actions are justified by some moral.
--- End quote ---

You are specifically referring to my statement that I was only posting in the som.com forums when it was a "moral imperative". Whatever my morals may be is completely irrelevant. Moral imperative is a a phrase that just means I am morally compelled to do something. Like helping a little old lady across the street. Doesn't matter what the morals involved are, only how I would feel about myself if I did not follow through with my own personal convictions.


--- Quote --- In the MANY conversations I've had with you, you have never admitted any of your actions were wrong no matter how obvious it was.
--- End quote ---

That is probably because it isn't obvious to me. I always do the right thing. I'm a calm and collected 21st century bleeding heart liberal and every day the laws of this land are being revised to better approximate my private worldview. I think I am on the right side of history and it could not be more obvious.


--- Quote ---You were claiming that you had a moral obligation to argue off-topic in someone else's thread. I evaluated your claim, decided it was wrong, and therefore your ERRONEOUS "moral" was irrelevant.
--- End quote ---

I only claimed that I had a moral obligation to say hello to this chap. And to make sure that he understood that he was making things hard on himself by not looking into extending SOM ASAP.

The problem with making assumptions is you go out and make trouble for people based on misunderstandings.

The only offtopic post was yours. You brought up that you thought that there was a bug in Ex. And then you got very bossy (via PM) just because your claim was refuted in kind.

Because you personalized that assertion it would not have flied in this forum and any trouble that could have arisen from it would have stopped then and there. If you don't allow personal posts you can't have personal arguments period. If people need to vent all they can do is be passive aggressive.


--- Quote --- I can't be expected to take the time to convince you (who never admit you are wrong) that you are incorrect before taking action.
--- End quote ---

That's beside the point. I don't post in forums for my health. Just the idea that I would have my posts moderated period is enough to turn me away. And I am not going to say you can't do that.

Forums are messy business. You can't sanitize them. If you want something ordered you have to setup a blog or something. If someone butts in with a truly random tangent. I've seen it happen. It's good to fork it as soon as possible. Otherwise if there is a thread connecting some point however bare you just have to let it run its course.


--- Quote ---You said:
"But I just know that I am doing myself, SOM, and everyone who cares about SOM, a disservice to spend time with this forum. Anyway I retired my account and deleted my feeds/bookmarks last night. I just can't have any involvement with an angry site so entwined with something so close to me as Sword of Moonlight."

Seriously!? I ask you not to be rude on the forum and you think that means the forum is so "angry" that you have to disassociate from it? I am one of the most compassionate, moralistic people I know (hence why I am spending my time writing this message) and I have zero desire to be hostile or allow anyone else to be hostile on the forums. Your logic and conclusion here is just plain wrong.
--- End quote ---

Yeah like I said we don't see eye to eye. I can only interpret your actions as hostile. Both when you denigrated Ex on the most tenuous of grounds despite the absolute absurdity of what Ex achieves on behalf of SOM without which SOM may as well not even exist for all of its complications and inadequacies.

And then you turn around and bust my ass like a cop with a hard on because I replied as briefly as possible to something you posted that you knew well and good could not be left alone anymore than if you had insulted my mother. Regardless of your intentions your response demonstrated a certain lack of sensitivity which I am just not prepared to submit to or adapt to.


--- Quote ---For the fourth time, what I'm expecting is simple:
Don't post EXCESSIVE amounts of off-topic text in a thread.
Don't be rude to others.
If you think these requirements make a site "hostile", you are wrong. I'll ask you directly, come back the SoM.com forums and enjoy sharing your enthusiasm for SoM with others. That is the purpose of a forum and the very reason I think the above two rules are required.
--- End quote ---

I don't feel like I am missing out on anything. I don't feel comfortable or welcome, and even if you are just covering your ass here, which is well commendable, the fact remains that it just won't work out. I am more comfortable here where I can ensure any discussion of SOM does not degenerate into abuse / domination of anyone much less myself.

Don't get the wrong idea. I understand very well in the real world flare ups, outbursts, open hostility, psycho drama, are always palpable and beneath the surface. But I don't think that is constructive, or the direction western civilization is heading. And I would prefer to model appropriate behavior as long as I have anything to do with it.

I will get down in the dirt in any given online forum just because, there's that word again, I have a moral imperative to model good behavior. But this isn't any given online forum. It's a Sword of Moonlight forum. And by god I won't stand for anyone disgracing Sword of Moonlight. It's not just a fan thing. I've devoted and invested a good deal of my life to it and may well identify myself personally with it for all I know...

So that's why I have a very difficult time taking part in any discussion of SOM that is irreverent (to my mind) and would just assume not know that such forums even exist though I am glad that they do.

If anything I have a "moral imperative" to try to participate. I tried. And frankly I am relieved to have found an out. You shouldn't take it personally. But that's not to say that I would not have handled things very differently were I in your shoes. Besides the fact that there would have been no problem at all to begin with :cop: (were I)


PS: There is a new thread around here that explains how to make 75% smaller BGM files if you want to make sure everyone knows they can do that. SOM downloads are too huge as it is and BGMs make up a lot of the bulk.

dmpdesign:
What on earth?

Did you really delete your stuff on som.com?

I don't want to get involved in personal business that doesn't really concern me, but if I may give my 2 pennies worth, Id like you to reactivate your account and continue to post about your work with SomEx etc.

If SomEx is as important to the future of SoM based games as you think it is/will be, then the folks that visit there (such as the new guy's thread where this all started) should be given the chance to find out all they can about it.

Let's be honest Holy, there are very very few people who find SoM, fewer still who bother to log into either of the forums, and even less that stick with it.  If you are going to continue to work on SomEx, don't you want as much exposure as you can get for it?  Why have your work be for naught? I am not trying to be mean, but I would wager a larger % of the small number of people that find SoM at all find it via som.com, it would be sad if they can't continue to get updates and feedback about your work from that portal.

I am well aware that my words probably mean very little to you as I have burned my bridges with your good favor a long time ago, but I assure you I am not the same guy I was then, I wish you did not feel unwelcome, especially if its from me.  I want everyone on the forum(s) doing their best to make SoM games for the community, and that most certainly includes you and your work.

Can we sort this out and agree amongst ourselves to try to keep things civil, unpersonal and professional?  There have been mistakes made, apologies made and so on, lets just move forward and try not to repeat them?

Holey Moley:
Thanks dmpdesign. I will read this post again later.

But as for you question. No I just changed my status to ACCOUNT RETIRED. I did delete my browser bookmarks and stuff so I can't compulsively check the forum. And I won't be reading it. Mainly so I am not compelled to post. But also because I have bigger fish to fry.

And like I say I don't like to see SOM disgraced by the petty things people do when unchecked.


PS: For the record I don't believe people should be allowed to delete forum accounts. It's one of the first things I turn off. But I did tell Wolf he could delete my account, but I warned him I wasn't sure what that would do to my posts.

Holey Moley:

--- Quote from: dmpdesign on February 14, 2013, 02:23:49 AM ---What on earth?
--- End quote ---

Yeah you're telling me.


--- Quote ---Did you really delete your stuff on som.com?
--- End quote ---

Again no. It's still all there isn't it? Wolf tells me he did delete a few posts under the guise of moderation. He may have deleted more since then. Possibly everything if he can do that.


--- Quote ---Let's be honest Holy, there are very very few people who find SoM, fewer still who bother to log into either of the forums, and even less that stick with it.  If you are going to continue to work on SomEx, don't you want as much exposure as you can get for it?  Why have your work be for naught? I am not trying to be mean, but I would wager a larger % of the small number of people that find SoM at all find it via som.com, it would be sad if they can't continue to get updates and feedback about your work from that portal.
--- End quote ---

Well if you care anything for SOM you will do that yourself. I'm not a coach and a salesman too. I pull enough weight for SOM already.


--- Quote ---I am well aware that my words probably mean very little to you as I have burned my bridges with your good favor a long time ago, but I assure you I am not the same guy I was then, I wish you did not feel unwelcome, especially if its from me.  I want everyone on the forum(s) doing their best to make SoM games for the community, and that most certainly includes you and your work.
--- End quote ---

I take your words at face value. To be honest my decision to jump ship was brought on by Wolf's som.com moderation. But I was only participating in the first place to reward you for demonstrating some decency and humility.

Wolf has been posting mean little balls of hate around here lately. This thread in point. You know to each his own. Som.com is too Mad Max for my temperament. Especially when SOM is involved.

And frankly som.com posters seem to be more wanting of attention than Sword of Moonlight progress... or any activity whatsoever. People go online to get attention. It's good they have somewhere to go do that.


--- Quote ---Can we sort this out and agree amongst ourselves to try to keep things civil, unpersonal and professional?  There have been mistakes made, apologies made and so on, lets just move forward and try not to repeat them?
--- End quote ---

We can do all of that here. If you don't go personal (not allowed here) you can't go uncivil, check check. As for professional I am not sure what that means with respect to online discussion.

If you want me to see something somewhere send a link my way :saint:

If I have incompetent users in here I will send them your way :evil:

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